Author Topic: Sidemount vs backmount  (Read 6299 times)

Offline Andy

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2012, 05:24:00 PM »

We even lost one of our support crew over the side last year when they were dropping in a scooter  :flame: The big advantage there is that the scooter is positive near the surface and didn’t sink… Not sure what happened to the support diver though….

Funniest thing I have seen in a long time watching the two legs vanish off the side of the boat (once we knew he was ok).  However, I have heard this was simply a ploy to avoid having to help the rest of us! By the time, he was back in the boat, most of us were gone over the side!

Andy

Offline Stephen McMullan

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2012, 05:53:39 PM »
He says the same every time he has to pick you up after you faceplant yourself on the deck  ::)

Offline Sidemount Ninja Tx

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Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2012, 08:39:06 PM »
I'm not sure where people have got the idea that we promote SM is a catch all panacea and method for all diving, however neither is it restricted to flat water, ribs, caves and wrecks. I have no issues jumping in off a hardboat, I just temporarily use clips instead on bungee on my mains, stages exactly the same hard clipping as BM. However in a big swell would I rather kit up in water than stagger over the side of a hardboat fully loaded. Easy to clip on one cylinder then shoot the other 5 or 6 down a gear line a few metres out of the swell and clip on at leisure. That's personal preference, delighted with anyone who wants to get a great quad workout on a bouncy boat.

Having said that, I don't like bouncy boats, I read about the recent vomitorium trip and didn't know whether the boat was full of heroes or..........  I'd want guaranteed mermaids with a happy ending to go through that S@€t.

Simply put for me SM is nicer to dive open water than BM. Try it - properly, not some monkey rig, you might be surprised! If not, no loss to anyone.

BTW we'd clearly buy the rosguill, and then recoup the investment taking BM out on all the tough days and SM with cocktails and dolly birds on the good ones. Honestly you lads wouldn't know what to do with our wads of cash! Ha ha.

Finally. I know of 6 tec qualified SM divers in Ireland. Aaron and me don't have to hold hands alone anymore

Offline Sidemount Ninja

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2012, 11:59:28 PM »
Interesting... I really can’t get my head around the whole Sidemount approach as a catch all solution to diving. I think it’s a great system when the diving calls for a very low profile, but I really can’t see the benefit unless you are doing to do some wreck penetration. I would consider having to get geared up in the water a big disadvantage for diving in the North Atlantic. I could count on one hand the number days you get on the north coast were you will get no wind, swell not to mention fully slack water to allow you to do that. We have found it hard enough in the past getting a scooter dropped into a diver let alone two or more cylinders. Most dives in Malin require you to get in when the current is running to dive you the full slack window on the wreck.

We even lost one of our support crew over the side last year when they were dropping in a scooter  :flame: The big advantage there is that the scooter is positive near the surface and didn’t sink… Not sure what happened to the support diver though….

Baza, fair comment (as was your comment about hose routing a few pages back). Its not that I can't clip 6 cylinders onto my harness and stand at the back of the boat - I WON'T do it. I have no interest in that type of diving for a number of reasons. And 6 cyls would be the max, most diving would be 4 or 5 (rebreather territory if longer/deeper required - not my thing) Doesn't mean that sidemount has no place in the North Atlantic but it does mean that my way of donning the cylinders may be incompatible with the Malin diving. I can live with that.  I get your point about SM wreck penetration but in reality this is a two cylinder job anyway. For deeper dives the cylinders would be kept with me and I don't think multiple cylinders in a wreck is a good idea - for me anyway - I don't have your skills or experience. The low profile of SM with 2 is obvious but even with more than 2 the profiling is still better. I've covered what I consider to be the benefits previously so don't want to repeat myself.

I'm with Matt on not being sure where the idea of us promoting SM came from. It works brilliantly for the diving I do, and all I have noted is about my positive experiences of it, having had the benefit of BM experience to compare. If anything I promote both SM and BM as options and to go with what works best for the individual diver.

As for the clutter free frontal area  - here I am with 4 cylinders (all locked into position and not moving), the AL80 are accessible, out of the way, all regs/valves can be seen and the hose routing is as neat as you can get. Long hose, short hose - easy to access. Compare this to the pics that are regularly shown of BM's with 2 stages hanging in the breeze. (and it is considered a good idea to dive like a grappling hook because it has always been done this way). I'm more streamlined, more comfortable, there is a lot less snag potential and it is easier to don this even in rough conditions. Its my personal choice to dive this way, for me the reasons are obvious. I doubt any of the BM'er (exception of Baza) have tried anything like THIS set-up so are commenting from a disadvantaged position.

A lot of the negative comments here come down to a lack of information and understanding re a proper SM system. They are not all the same and as Baza noted, BM'ers could learn a lot about neatening up the stages using SM rigging.

Matt, was going to suggest we charter the Rozzie mid week (as we are so loaded we can take time off whenever we want) and dive the wrecks without the BM'ers cramping our style.. ;)

« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 09:21:52 AM by Aaron Wootton »

Offline Tom Brett

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2012, 08:57:45 AM »
I have dived both, and still do occasionally when teaching
I rather Twins, I think that sidemount - unless the diver is well versed in swapping gas that it can lead to mistakes grabbing wrong hose - ok this is to do with training and experience
I have seen alot of in-experienced divers use SM, and I can imagine the time when one says mmmm I am going to try a rich mix and ...... you can imagine.

For me I love back mount - I can roll and do everything that a SM can do in them, I find that with 2 cylinders SM is nice but when u load it with more than it gets akward - especially with a large camera also dangling around.

I also find that walking around with SM is worse than with BM, it is great to say that it may not suit Malin - but this is where we are and it offers some of the best diving over here.

Again everyone to their own - SM definitely does have a place - I can def see the advantages with blow outs etc.... but good training and practice is also key.

Tom

Offline Sidemount Ninja

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2012, 10:05:14 AM »
Hi Tom, I think you have described what is probably the norm in SM experience. Unfortunately SM has not been developed to the point of having a universally accepted configuration. With BM, everybody accepts the hogarthian setup (minor tweaks aside) so pretty much any diver trying BM will be singing from the same hymn sheet. Most comments on BM will be based around the same issues - weighting, clipping issues, single v clipped harness etc.

Almost every diver that tries SM comes away with a negative opinion of it as there is no standardised way of setting it up. Most systems are a work in progress or home build. I regularly see hose routings and configurations borrowed from the BM way of doing things that don't work and are only going to frustrate the diver. Most see SM diving as an extension of the stage bottle set-up from BM, ie., the SM tanks are the same as LHS stages and the twins get split and hung RHS just like the stages on the left. Hoses are all over the place, wrong reg choice is a huge concern. This is side "slung" not mounted. Different beast and there is no comparison between a properly fitted SM system (harness, cylinders, valves, regs and hoses) and the multitude of side slung variations out there. A few years down the line when a standardised system has been adopted you will see a far more positive response to SM. Matt, myself and the others that have tried proper SM already have a heads up as to what the future looks like.

You must be racking up some savage hours in the Sentinel at this stage. Let the rest of us catch up FFS!  :)

« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 10:06:47 AM by Aaron Wootton »

Offline baza

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2012, 10:41:43 AM »
I regularly see hose routings and configurations borrowed from the BM way of doing things that don't work and are only going to frustrate the diver.

I think your right there. I've seen / used a few different SM in the past, but all home built stuff to be honest, nothing as nice as they gear you guys are using now. I'm sure it will always have its cult following. Its a bit like the DIR lads and having all clyinder on the left. Its a must if you are running scooters / cameras on the right, but I really don't see the benifit if you aren't.

It would be nice to get a bit of diversity on the boats in Malin, the sight of boats full of yellow boxes and O'three dry suits is getting a little old at this stage!! It would give us something to talk about on our 5 hr steams to the dive site at least.....
Barry McGill
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http://indepthtechnical.com/


Offline Cathal_M

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2012, 10:45:23 AM »
I regularly see hose routings and configurations borrowed from the BM way of doing things that don't work and are only going to frustrate the diver.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't the razor (SM)system effectivly a sidemount adaptaion of a hogartian (BM)regulator configuration?  IMO there's nothing new going on here really - SM has been around for decades in UK/ Irish/ French cave diving and further afield.  Its difficult to define "proper" sidemounting.   A tool is a means to an end.   Rick Stanton or Martyn Farr might argue that a faded buddy BCD with D rings sewn here and there is a "proper" rig - the right tool for the job.   As i see it the Razor is a very well branded, well marketed (well priced) derivation of these rigs.    I think they've probably decided to keep the hog looped regs to appeal to the GUE breakaways.   Incidently the Martyn Farr(esque) harness's used by UK/Irish cave divers has a neater hose routing:  1 left handed and 1 right handed reg held under the chin by a bungee necklace with breakaway clips.   Long hose for a buddy (if you have one) is stored looped on the bottle.

Anyway - i dont lose too much sleep over the debate.  As you know I occasional sneak in the old (monkey) sidemount dive myself.   But i've also been photographed controversially in the past in a single 12, a twinset, even a Sentinal....but i swear i was just minding that for a friend  :)      Bottom line is - any tool that claims to do "all jobs" probably doesnt do any of them very well.   Just ask my pen knife thats also a lamp.....and a hat   :)

Cathal

Offline Tom Brett

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2012, 11:14:27 AM »
I resent that remark - Even a Sentinel.........


That Sentinel of mine is cloacking up some serious hours

LOL

Offline Martin

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2012, 11:43:57 AM »
I love the Sidemount set up - great comfort, it's great in tight situations- caves ,wrecks. Everything is there in front of you  -  :rocker:

Offline Stephen McMullan

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2012, 12:07:18 PM »
The cult have their spies everywhere. They've turned CFT!!!! and a rebreather diver at that  :spin:


Offline baza

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2012, 12:09:24 PM »
The cult have their spies everywhere. They've turned CFT!!!! and a rebreather diver at that  :spin:

I think we'll need to find another support crew member to replace him... Can't have this kind of chat on a civilised wreck diving trip!
Barry McGill
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Offline Stephen McMullan

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2012, 12:18:13 PM »
Yep, those bilge gimps and deck monkeys have a limited amount of time before they go a bit mental and do things like run off and join the Hare Khrisna diving society.

Offline Martin

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2012, 02:58:51 PM »
ouch that hurt Barry  :sarcasm:

Offline Sidemount Ninja

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Re: Sidemount vs backmount
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2012, 06:49:43 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't the razor (SM)system effectivly a sidemount adaptaion of a hogartian (BM)regulator configuration?  IMO there's nothing new going on here really - SM has been around for decades in UK/ Irish/ French cave diving and further afield.  Its difficult to define "proper" sidemounting.   A tool is a means to an end.   Rick Stanton or Martyn Farr might argue that a faded buddy BCD with D rings sewn here and there is a "proper" rig - the right tool for the job.   As i see it the Razor is a very well branded, well marketed (well priced) derivation of these rigs.    I think they've probably decided to keep the hog looped regs to appeal to the GUE breakaways.   Incidently the Martyn Farr(esque) harness's used by UK/Irish cave divers has a neater hose routing:  1 left handed and 1 right handed reg held under the chin by a bungee necklace with breakaway clips.   Long hose for a buddy (if you have one) is stored looped on the bottle.

Just ask my pen knife thats also a lamp.....and a hat   :)

Cathal

Not only are you not right, you're not even wrong!!  ;D

I like the Limerick knife thing.

Garda "is that a knife?"

Cathal."No, Guard, it's a lamp"

"Bollocks. Turn it on then"

"Sorry Guard. My mistake, it's actually a hat". Places knife on head.

"Ah, very fetching. G'wan about your business"

I won't argue with you......you evil genius.   :P
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 06:54:14 PM by Aaron Wootton »

 

     
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