See yourself as a PADI Technical Instructor?

[Thistlegorm]

The PADI Tec Rec Instructor Course range is open to all PADI Instructors, even those who are not already certified Tec Rec divers. Scubadive Ireland’s Instructor courses are structured to provide the opportunity to gain both your diver-level and instructor-level Tec Rec qualifications during one weekend.
 
We ask you to visit our Calendar page for details of our August courses, taking place in Portroe Quarry.  The month of August will start with a Tec 40 diver-level, and Tec 40  Technical Instructor Course on the weekend of 6th & 7th. Remember, even if you are not already Tec Rec certified but are a PADI Instructor, you can undertake your Tec 40 diver-level and instructor-level over this weekend.
 
PADI Instructors complete their Tec Rec Instructor training with Firas Jundi of Scubadive Ireland
 

The schedule follows a similar format the following weekend, 13th & 14th August, with Tec 45 diver-level and instructor-level training.
 
Due to the very specific nature of this training, we strongly encourage you to speak to Firas directly. Call him on 087 6603783.
 
Scubadive Ireland will happily tailor its courses to suit divers in all corners of Ireland. Our name “does exactly what it says on the tin!”

For more information, you can visit our blog at the link bellow
http://scubadiveireland.ie/blog/?p=67

[Chris Byrne]

Am I right in saying that someone who has no Technical Diving experience can do a course over one weekend and become an instructor!!

If this is true it sounds worrying that I could go somewhere and do a course and be instructed by someone who has only a hand full of dives more than me. If someone said to me a year after I started to Tech Dive that I was qualified to bring someone and teach them I would have laughed, it would seam like the biggest task over load that I ever heard of.

I must have this wrong but if so just for curiosity does anyone know what is the prerequirments for a tech instructor is? But if that was the case I think next time I do a Tech course I will be checking the instructors log book to make sure he has the experiences not the other way around as ud expect 

Maybe its just me that would be worried going to 40m/ doing skills ect. for the first time with someone almost as green? 

I am sure here respected instructor trainers like Firase would check to ensure there is a pre gained level that they are happy with but it would worrie me to think that something like this could happen

[Scubadec / Dec Hanniffy]

I was just going to write the exact same question tonight after dinner....
I took it up the same way you did Chris...
Be interesting to see the answer.

[Sidemount Ninja]

Firstly, to Firas and the crew - best of luck with the new venture, hope it goes brilliantly 


As regards tec instructors a couple of wet weekends ahead of the students - I find the fault with PADI for rushing to get a slice of the tec action without due consideration imho. You have to have at least 100 open water dives done prior to becoming an OWSI yet zero tec dives (other than training) are required prior to becoming a tec instructor  Perhaps PADI think the 100 dives for an OWSI are sufficient to qualify as tec? Good job PADI don't pump out driving instructors.

And another thing (I'll avoid seawing nova references......) where in the tec courses are students taught about frog kicks, back kicks etc??? I've lost count of the number of times I've seen tec students kneeling on the bottom of the pool doing valve drills and then spluttering around in their shiny split fins (not Firas or scubadiveireland, I don't know how you do things). All followed by the usual PADI pep talk "hey you guys have done really well, congrats on your new skills blah blah"  - works best with an overbearing American accent.
This would never happen with GUE, UTD or any other training organisation that has a "essentials" tec prerequisite. The good instructors (and good PADI instructors) will teach this and more to students , even above what is required in the standards.

Much as I respect the PADI system, and am a DM myself,  I do think they could have thought about this a bit more.

And this is why I searched for over a year to find the right instructor for me. (thanks Artur  )

[Ken Hawk]

They don't call them Put Another Dollar In for nothing

It is all just a money racket
Tec 40 kerching
Tec 41 kerching
Tec 42 kerching
Tec 43 kerching
By the time you get to Tec 60mts, you're out about 5 grand 

And the others ain't much better 

We had a lad diving with us this weekend who has lived on boats all his life, done training with the RNLI, and BSAC wouldn't give him a boat handler cross over, so he told them where to shove it

[Thistlegorm]

Hi Chris and Dec,

Thanks for your questions
The PADI Technical Instructor rating is an entry level for PADI instructors wishes to go the Technical training route to become a full Tec Deep Instructors.  It only qualify the Technical Instructor to teach Tec 40 (which is similar to Advanced nitrox with other training agencies). This allows the instructor to gradually build experience in teaching Technical course while working on the requirements of becoming a Tec Deep Instructor.
•   Prerequisites:
1.   Be a renewed PADI Open Water Scuba Instructor
2.   Be a PADI Enriched Air Diver (or hold a qualifying certification from another organization)
3.   Be a PADI Enriched Air Instructor, or have successfully completed a PADI Enriched Air Instructor Training course.
4.   Be a PADI Deep Diver Specialty Instructor or have successfully completed a PADI Deep Diver Specialty Instructor Training course.
5.   Have a minimum of 100 logged dives where at least 20 dives were made with enriched air nitrox, 25 dives were deeper than 18 meters and at least 15 dives were deeper than 30 meters.
The training itself does not qualify participants to Teach Tec 40 straight away.  The following post requirements have to be met:
1.   Be a renewed PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainer or PADI Instructor with a higher rating.
2.   Be a PADI Enriched Air Instructor.
3.   Be a PADI Deep Diver Specialty Instructor.
4.   Be certified as a Tec 45 Diver or have a qualifying certification from another training organization. For the purposes of this level, a qualifying certification is one that qualifies you to make decompression dives to 45 metres using air, EANx and oxygen using double cylinder, open circuit scuba equipment.
5.   Have a minimum of 20 stage decompression dives after completing all of the above, the instructor can submit the application and once authorized can only teach and certify Tec 40 divers.
Tec 40 divers are only qualified to:
•   Use decompression software and dive computers to plan and make decompression dives with no more than 10 minutes of total decompression and not deeper than 40 metres/130 feet.
•   Use a single cylinder of decompression gas with up to 50 present oxygen (EANx50) to add conservatism to the required decompression.
In order for the Technical instructor to become a full Tec Deep Instructor, the instructor needs to go through an extensive Tec Deep Instructor training. They also have to meet the following post requirements:
1. Be a renewed PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainer or PADI Instructor with a higher rating.
2. Be a PADI Enriched Air Instructor.
3. Be a PADI Deep Diver Specialty Instructor.
4. Be certified as a DSAT Tec 50 diver, or have a qualifying certification from another training organization. For the purposes of this level, a qualifying certification is certification for technical deep diving using air, enriched air and pure oxygen for decompression dives to at least 50 metres/ 165 feet. The PADI
5. Have assisted with at least one Tec 50 course or one Tec 45 course.
6. Have a minimum of 270 dives logged, with at least 25 stage decompression dives that had a maximum depth deeper than 40 metres/130 feet.
7. Have certified a total of ten or more PADI Deep Divers and/or PADI Enriched Air Divers. Any combination that totals ten is acceptable.
8. Have successfully completed the Tec Deep Instructor Standards Exam and Tec Deep Instructor Theory and Practical Application Exam.
9. Meet the peer review water skill requirements listed on the Tec Deep Instructor Application.

To answer your questions, an instructor cannot get certified as PADI Technical Instructor and be allowed to offer Tec 40 course in just a weekend or two. However instructors can start their training even if they never had diver technical training before, go over their diver level first & progress with their skills and experience. Only once they meet the course performance requirements and post requirements, they can apply for the certificate. I started offering TecRec course in Ireland late 2009. Few instructors managed to meet the Tec Deep Instructor requirements in an average of a year with several weekends of trianing and skill evaluations while diving on their fun dives with twinsets to practice skills and log dec dives. Some are still working on it and others decided to teach few Tec 40 courses before progressing to the next isntructor level. I have had great reports on few of them like Declan from Dec & Dive, Cillian from Scuba Dive West and there are a handful of them are due complete their requirements this season. 

If you have any further questions, please contact me.

Firas
 

Am I right in saying that someone who has no Technical Diving experience can do a course over one weekend and become an instructor!!

If this is true it sounds worrying that I could go somewhere and do a course and be instructed by someone who has only a hand full of dives more than me. If someone said to me a year after I started to Tech Dive that I was qualified to bring in people to bring in someone and teach them I would have laughed, it would seam like the biggest task over load that I ever heard of.

I must have this wrong but if so just for curiosity does anyone know what is the prerequirments for a tech instructor is? But if that was the case I think next time I do a Tech course I will be checking the instructors log book to make sure he has the experiences not the other way around as ud expect 

Maybe its just me that would be worried going to 40m/ doing skills ect. for the first time with someone almost as green? 

I am sure here respected instructor trainers like Firase would check to ensure there is a pre gained level that they are happy with but it would worrie me to think that something like this could happen

[Thistlegorm]

Firstly, to Firas and the crew - best of luck with the new venture, hope it goes brilliantly  :rocker
HI Aaron, Thanks

As regards tec instructors a couple of wet weekends ahead of the students - I find the fault with PADI for rushing to get a slice of the tec action without due consideration imho. You have to have at least 100 open water dives done prior to becoming an OWSI yet zero tec dives (other than training) are required prior to becoming a tec instructor  Perhaps PADI think the 100 dives for an OWSI are sufficient to qualify as tec? Good job PADI don't pump out driving instructors.

I hope my reply to Chris and Dec clarifies the PADI philosophy on Technical Instructor training
And another thing (I'll avoid seawing nova references......) where in the tec courses are students taught about frog kicks, back kicks etc??? I've lost count of the number of times I've seen tec students kneeling on the bottom of the pool doing valve drills and then spluttering around in their shiny split fins (not Firas or scubadiveireland, I don't know how you do things). All followed by the usual PADI pep talk "hey you guys have done really well, congrats on your new skills blah blah"  - works best with an overbearing American accent.
This would never happen with GUE, UTD or any other training organisation that has a "essentials" tec prerequisite. The good instructors (and good PADI instructors) will teach this and more to students , even above what is required in the standards.

Much as I respect the PADI system, and am a DM myself,  I do think they could have thought about this a bit more.
Here I am not sure about what level of training you are referring to? However I was given a Seawing nova (which is still laying in my shed) I do agree with you that I found it very limiting to what finning styles you can do. I have had  students with split fins and the Seawing nove.  When they have seen the video clip of how they tried to do reverse kick or helicopter turn compared to others, some were convinced to change it, even to a cheaper ones. Others are still using it. As long as they completed the skills performance requirements for a particular course and get certified, I cannot control how they dive after the training.
And this is why I searched for over a year to find the right instructor for me. (thanks Artur  )

[Sidemount Ninja Tx]

Just my very limited experience view. I've just been through PADI tec 40 and 45, plus Steve Martins 4 day sidemount. In addition a good friend lent me all the TDI course materials etc up to trimix etc. Frankly there's no competency or skills differences. PADI's materials are as usua with PADI excellent and very thorough. Do they break stuff down too much, probably, but they are basing tec 40 on a rec diver who just want to add 10 mins deco in non tec kit. I did my 40 in full tec kit, but it's not a requirement. If you look across the agencies at number of training dives required, there's not much difference. It all depends on the instructors you have and the standards they set. If you cant hold trim or control your position in the water a good instructor will sort those skills out with you. If your going into tec diving and you can't identify a quality instructor (ive had two - deliberately I wanted to get a cross section of experience so big thanks Declan Burke and Cillian Gray) then tec probably isn't for you. As for instructor pre-requisites, I'd certainly want any instructor I engaged to have several 100 tec dives under their belt, regardless of training agency standards.

[Sidemount Ninja]

I'd fully agree with Matt that the various agencies all teach more or less the same stuff and PADI materials are a cut above the others. I still maintain that the standards are set too low - to qualify as a tec deep (50m) instructor - MSDT, 270 dives, 25 stage deco deeper than 40m (do the training dives for tec 45 and 50 count towards this total?), help on one course, qualify 10 deep OR EANx divers (so possibly no deep divers at all??)

My point being, I know MSDT's with 100's of dives that have never been below 30m. Most of the dives were warm water and spent at less than 15m. They do the training course, help a little, get 25 (or is this 15 on top of their own training??)  stage dives, peer review (?) and then shazam.......

I note this as a minimum standard, Firas  - I have no doubt you would demand more of your students.

But what of other instructor trainers, more in it for the numbers (let's not be naive and think that this never happens). The reality is that this system may produce an instructor not very experienced in tec who can go out and provide courses to the unwary.

At the moment, the pool of instructors is small (in this country), people talk, find out who is good and make their choices. What happens when there are dozens upon dozens of instructors and the few great instructors become harder to notice. Students, knowing no better will often heap praise on their instructor - after all, they MUST be good to be an instructor. This does not mean that the quality of tuition is good, or the student is capable of realising where their skill set is weak. I've done the tec deep (soon to be sidemount like Matt) and I can see clearly the difference between great instructors and those that follow the standards to the letter. More worryingly, I've seen the quality of diver produced by the less experienced instructor.  Like Matt, I think a good instructor should have 100's of tec dives to be in a position to teach, to have experienced all the equipment issues, kit configurations etc to be able to pass this knowledge on to students. It would be nice if this was made a standard rather than a choice.

[Eoin OBeara]

You have to have at least 100 open water dives done prior to becoming an OWSI

Can you tell me where in the OWSI pre-reqs it says that any number of the 100 dives have to be in "open water". By that I mean that some Instructors are coming up with quite a few inland dives done, but not as much open water experience as you or I would like.
I'm not agency bashing, just SOP bashing rather. 

[Ger Dooly]

As regards tec instructors a couple of wet weekends ahead of the students - I find the fault with PADI for rushing to get a slice of the tec action without due consideration imho. You have to have at least 100 open water dives done prior to becoming an OWSI yet zero tec dives (other than training) are required prior to becoming a tec instructor  Perhaps PADI think the 100 dives for an OWSI are sufficient to qualify as tec? Good job PADI don't pump out driving instructors.

In fairness, do a google search before you start agency bashing.
The pre-requisites for the DSAT instructor course are higher than their competing agencies.

For example TDI pre-req's are - 250 dives, 25 extended range (below 30m) dives and 10 completed advanced nitrox certs while DSAT are 270 dives, 25 extended range (below 40m) and 10 completed deep diver certs.

I think anymore additional pre-req's on top of this is just ridiculous. A technical instructor is there to introduce you to technical diving in a safe manner. That's it. 

Once finished it's up to the diver to gain the experience needed (in a slow methodical manner).

[Thistlegorm]

Aaron,
I am going to compare the experience requirements between PADI TecRec programs to TDI. Baring in mind that TDI holds a high position in the technical diving industry and many of the famous Tec instructors/divers descended from TDI. 
1-   TDI Advanced Nitrox Instructor vs. PADI Technical instructor rating. Both can teach Advanced Nitrox / Tec 40
•   Dives requirements for TDI Adv Nitrox instructor are: 100 Dives + 25 Nitrox Dives  (and no Deco dives required)  vs. for PADI Technical Instructor rating are: 100 dives to be OWSI + whatever dives needed to certify 25 students to reach the Master Scuba Diver Rating. Plus 20 Deco dives using twinsets.
•   Teaching experience requirement for TDI Advanced Nitrox instructor is to certify 10 nitrox levels. (It can be all dry courses so no water teaching experience required) vs.  PADI Technical Instructor is required be Master Scuba Diver Trainer which requires having taught 25 courses with no more than 5 allowed to be dry courses.
2-   TDI Extended range instructor vs PADI Tec Deep Instructor
•   Dives requirements for TDI ER Instructor are to have logged 250 dives, with 25 Extend range dives ( no depth limit)  vs Tec Deep Instructor is required to have 270 dives with 25 Dec dives deeper than 40 Meters.
•   Teaching experience requirement for TDI Extended Range Instructor (I like the name though)is to have certified 10 students between Nitrox and Deco procedures ( no recreational courses teaching experience is required vs. Tec Deep instructor is required to have taught 25 cert to get to MSDT + 10 certs between Deep and Nitrox Specialty.
The TecRec Instructor courses does not require less diving/teaching experience than TDI and many other technical training agencies in good standing position. I am not going near the Instructor courses content and performance requirements but I do remember that my IANTD Technical Instructor course was my easier to achieve than my Tec Deep Instructor Course.
 I do believe that when an instructor is teaching a Tec level, he or she must exercise good judgment and risk management. This comes from building experience in what you are teaching.
The instructor should aim to produce a prudent Tec Diver for the particular level.  I also believe that many of the Tec diving accidents arise from failing to do so.
When I used to live in the Red Sea area, many of the accidents were related to the instructor’s attitude. Some instructors had thousands of challenging dives on their belt, yet rather than producing patient Tec divers who respects their own limits and slowly work on expanding their knowledge and skills to extent them , they spent the time during the course bragging  about their abilities and achievements in Tec diving.   This resulted in many divers behaving in a competitive and irresponsible manner with their aim often to break certain depths or penetration.

I'd fully agree with Matt that the various agencies all teach more or less the same stuff and PADI materials are a cut above the others. I still maintain that the standards are set too low - to qualify as a tec deep (50m) instructor - MSDT, 270 dives, 25 stage deco deeper than 40m (do the training dives for tec 45 and 50 count towards this total?), help on one course, qualify 10 deep OR EANx divers (so possibly no deep divers at all??)

My point being, I know MSDT's with 100's of dives that have never been below 30m. Most of the dives were warm water and spent at less than 15m. They do the training course, help a little, get 25 (or is this 15 on top of their own training??)  stage dives, peer review (?) and then shazam.......

I note this as a minimum standard, Firas  - I have no doubt you would demand more of your students.

But what of other instructor trainers, more in it for the numbers (let's not be naive and think that this never happens). The reality is that this system may produce an instructor not very experienced in tec who can go out and provide courses to the unwary.

At the moment, the pool of instructors is small (in this country), people talk, find out who is good and make their choices. What happens when there are dozens upon dozens of instructors and the few great instructors become harder to notice. Students, knowing no better will often heap praise on their instructor - after all, they MUST be good to be an instructor. This does not mean that the quality of tuition is good, or the student is capable of realising where their skill set is weak. I've done the tec deep (soon to be sidemount like Matt) and I can see clearly the difference between great instructors and those that follow the standards to the letter. More worryingly, I've seen the quality of diver produced by the less experienced instructor.  Like Matt, I think a good instructor should have 100's of tec dives to be in a position to teach, to have experienced all the equipment issues, kit configurations etc to be able to pass this knowledge on to students. It would be nice if this was made a standard rather than a choice.

[Thistlegorm]

Hi Eoin,
I hope this finds you well.
I am not aware of any agency requiring a certain environment when it comes to the Open Water logged dives requirements for instructor candidates.  Some people live in areas with no access to sea. However the instructor must assess the dive sites, again exercise judgment and risk management (like I mentioned in my comment to Aaron about Tec Instructors) before teaching. Pretty much like when divers move from one location to another, they need orientation about the new environment to dive safely.
There are two areas in the instructor training course that address this issue.

Happy Diving

You have to have at least 100 open water dives done prior to becoming an OWSI

Can you tell me where in the OWSI pre-reqs it says that any number of the 100 dives have to be in "open water". By that I mean that some Instructors are coming up with quite a few inland dives done, but not as much open water experience as you or I would like.
I'm not agency bashing, just SOP bashing rather. 

[Paul Dowling]

Or you could just pick it up off the net and skip all the boy scout badges 

[Sidemount Ninja]

In fairness, do a google search before you start agency bashing.
The pre-requisites for the DSAT instructor course are higher than their competing agencies.

For example TDI pre-req's are - 250 dives, 25 extended range (below 30m) dives and 10 completed advanced nitrox certs while DSAT are 270 dives, 25 extended range (below 40m) and 10 completed deep diver certs.

I think anymore additional pre-req's on top of this is just ridiculous. A technical instructor is there to introduce you to technical diving in a safe manner. That's it. 

Once finished it's up to the diver to gain the experience needed (in a slow methodical manner).

I wasn't agency bashing, I'm PADI myself. I just disagree with the way they and others do some things.  A higher standard by PADI does not mean that it is the correct standard. I followed up on the post you refer to with a more detailed response which I stand by. You say "a technical instructor is there to introduce you to technical diving in a safe manner. That's it."

With respect, I would also add, at a minimum, competency and control.  It would be relatively easy to teach someone to go down and up a line to 50+ metres  "safely" and within training guidelines. . I've seen it done several times. The reality is that PADI and most other tec agency standards do not even make fin kicks such as frog, reverse or helicopter turns a requirement. (Firas, I know you teach these, and fair play to you for doing it, but it is NOT a requirement). I note what has been said about the skills performance requirements and once these have been met, it is up to the diver as to how they dive and that it is up to the diver to gain the experience needed.

I'll say this for the last time in the hope that all will understand what I am getting at. I'm not singling out any agency, I'm singling out training standards. Not personalities. Standards. Any agency can have an egomaniac as a tec instructor, thats personality, not standards.

If the standards are such that the student exits the course thinking they are competent they are not to blame. If they have not been set on the correct path with the correct skill set and with the knowledge about trim, buoyancy, breathing control, correct weighting, propulsion techniques etc and how kit configuration and equipment choice etc can impact the dive, they are not in a position to gain experience starting on the correct path (this does not have to be about in-water skills - a good instructor can impart a wealth of critical information and knowledge to a student over a cup of coffee - I recommend the starbucks extra grande latte  ). Set the student up with 50% of the required information in the belief that they have all the knowledge and skills and just need experience? Safe?

I'm not DIR, I'm PADI but I have no problem jumping agency to get the training I require. I choose my instruction based on the skills I have researched, the skills I desire to obtain and the competency and reputation of the instructor to teach me those skills. I ask questions, listen to the answers.

Please google the training standards for UTD or GUE compared against the other agencies. Their business model may not be as successful as others but I think it is fair to say they tick most boxes as far as training goes. I'm not saying I'm DIR nor that the GUE/UTD route is for everyone (difficult to get training here anyway) - I'm saying the other agency standards fall far short of what should be a minimum and they do this for business reasons over student safety.  The fault lies somewhere between the instructor qualification requirements and the skills taught, or not, to the students. As I said previously, a good instructor will bridge the gap out of choice and love for teaching properly. These things are not "standards" and I don't judge an agency by a great instructor teaching above standards or a crap instructor teaching minimum standards with an attitude. i judge an agency on the standards, an instructor on what they tell me over coffee. Or redbull