See yourself as a PADI Technical Instructor?

[Stephen McMullan]

Aaron, you're reading way too much into my comments and misinterpreting the rest. Don't worry - it happens a lot  I'm sorry that you took offense at my ranting. It is generally aimed at what I think of these type of discussions on comparing agency standards etc. and not personalized to any individual.

I'll ask the lads the next time we have a long hang to see if anyone can do a frog kick, helicopter turn or reverse finning. Sure it'll be something to do to pass the time 

[Sidemount Ninja]

No offense taken Stephen, I've heard good things about you as a person and as a diver  . I'm just passionate about preserving the integrity of good quality instruction and skills. I reckon that's something we both fully agree on 



edited to note I often have a glass too many of vino in the wee hours. Two things we agree on 

[Ken Hawk]

No offense taken Stephen, I've heard good things about you as a person and as a diver  . I'm just passionate about preserving the integrity of good quality instruction and skills. I reckon that's something we both fully agree on 



edited to note I often have a glass too many of vino in the wee hours. Two things we agree on 

Don't believe everything you hear 

[Fintan Lowney]

I'll ask the lads the next time we have a long hang to see if anyone can do a frog kick, helicopter turn or reverse finning. Sure it'll be something to do to pass the time 

Why do'nt we try the Limbo Dance under the 9 / 6 / 3 mtr bar while we're at it as well 

Regards,
Fintan.

[emmbee]

Why do'nt we try the Limbo Dance under the 9 / 6 / 3 mtr bar while we're at it as well 

I'd do gimp on that one just for the opportunity to take a video...

Cheers,

Matthieu

[Pablo]

hi lads,
let me tell you a couple of things from the student-side of all the situation. A student like me who would like to achieve some tek-deep SKILLS (very often skills and certification play the opposite roles) would expect from his/her instructor that safety margin which will save my a55 when ( and i know it will) something will go wrong down there. We all agree that an instructor can't sell experience , which i am sure it would be a good market, but what will happen if during a deeper dive something will go wrong. Just few weeks ago i was in a swimming pool looking like an idiot cause the only one exercising my buoyancy in twinset at 4 and 3 meters ... i met a friend who told me he was going to get tek40 the next week and if i wanted to exercise together the dSMB deployment. This guy, a nice one, has no clue about frog kick, hovering , staging and so on but as far as i know this is not a "requisite" to be a tek40... WAF?!?!??!?!?!???!!? (What A F9ck) are we getting crazy? the instructor can't give just the right direction cause a book is enough for that. We (students) need strong pieces of advices about how to react if and the risks to accept ... A tek diver is different in his way to think and not so much about procedures...
having said that, i said mine....

 
this is the tek effect on me!

[Fintan Lowney]

Hi,

I believe that this post is getting a bit detracted from its origin. As always there are two sides to the agrument. I personally believe that training is a good thing and should be followed. This training will start you on a relative correct path - That's It.....

Like Stephen, said, most of what I know (granted, not a lot!!) is from the people I dive with. Training courses will give you the bullet points, after that it is up to the diver fill in the bits in between - these bits come with experience in my opinion and from talking to other like minded individuals.

There was a comment passed regarding making "your own standards" once you are in the water, I would alter this sentence "your own style"  and it still has the same meaning. What I mean by this is, you can have a logbook full of stickers / merit badges - whatever ?!?!  Once you go over the side of the boat - It's you that has to get you back!! If anybody is there to assist when it goes wrong that is a bonus for you. How you dive - if it works for you - is the way you should dive. If that entails Frogkicks / Frogmarches etc etc. do it..........

Enough rambling out of me, but to summarise the above. Training is good, it is important, but do'nt see it as the way to solve or teach you everything.......

The only advise that I would give when selecting an Instructor / Agency, choose the one that you believe suits you and your style of diving best.

Happy diving.

Regards,
Fintan.

[Chris Byrne]

Guys I have been meaning to come back to this for a long time. It started to wander very far from what I was initially concerned about. Now I dont want to offend anyone but I was just a bit shocked at the lack of experience need to be a Tech instructor. Where I think Aaron was going is that experience breaths experience and can be passed down. If I go for a course I would like to be thought by an instructor with lots of experience. They can tell you there own mistakes, potential hazards, pit falls ect. Id like a instructor who can pass this on. An example of this for me was the first time I went to Dolin. I was going with Artur. I was glad to have such an experienced diver who had clocked up so many hours in cave diving had made mistake had done hours of research learning from others mistakes. He could pass on all of these on to me. On the other hand I could have had a guy almost new to the environment. I know who id prefer to be in there and learn from.

I think the same goes for open water tech and I think what Aaron was getting at is that on the DSAT course there is no requirement to teach alot of the skills that make your diving better such as frog kicks, trim, helicopter kicks ect. I was out in Malta a while ago and seen firsthand how good it is to have a good experienced instructor. One of the lads from the club had decided to do a Tech course out there so I decided to tag along for the first day with them for a check dive. I was really impressed with what the instructor was able to pass onto myself and him. When doing various kicks he would watch us and then on land show us what we were doing wrong and how to correct it. Things like this also only come with alot personal experience.

Stephen you said about gaining experience after your courses and you do but you have to remember you are on a boat with some of the most experienced divers in the country. All of the guys u dive with would be well capable of been tech instructors and would be far better than most around. Most people alot of times don’t have someone to train with and practice the skills learned on these courses. Also there is a big difference between diving on OC and on a rebreather. We have to worry about air consumption. By fining correctly and been in a decent trim we can extend or bottom time (sorry now I dont mean to say that as if you didnt know of course you do Im just pointing out that this sort of stuff that aren’t on a course does have more relevance on OC) and only good and experience tech diver will be able to help you with that. It doesn’t have to be an instructor but why not learn these skills properly from the start and not allow for bad habits.

I think to say that having a good or bad instructor is going to make no difference is untrue. In fact I think it makes a huge difference.
But at the end of the day I think people should ask themselves if their son was doing a Tech course would you prefer him to be doing it with a instructor that is only still learning himself and still green to all the new gear or would you prefer someone that has a few years of experience behind them when he brings him to 40ms. We will all have different opinions on it and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me but that is my own view and guys please go ahead and disagree, it makes for interesting reading. But maybe there are a few others who would share it too?

[Turbo]

here we go again 
let the fun begin

[oakridge4]

I have been diving for a few years myself and I am amazed to be still alive, as frog kicks and helicopter turns were not being  taught by BSAC or any other agencies that I know then. Technique is something we all shall develop, by bending my knees I do use a frog kick of a type if the bottom is silty, not taught just a natural desire not to stir the shite ( I do like to stir the shite sometimes Ken ) however if finning against the current mid water you can stick your frog kicks where the sun does not shine i can power through the water much better finning from the hip, as taught by all the agencies then. If on the bottom  and going against the current my fins become redundant. For all you that  disagree because of the silt i shall stir i am talking about a proper current it wont stay for long and keeping my work of breathing down whether OC or CC is  an important factor to me to save my tissue saturation.  I do not disagree with good training but paying for a course that is intense and heavily involved in safety training and spending alot of that time teaching how to  move through the water in my mind is not time well spent. If it is needed for a student 

[Stephen McMullan]

Stephen you said about gaining experience after your courses and you do but you have to remember you are on a boat with some of the most experienced divers in the country. All of the guys u dive with would be well capable of been tech instructors and would be far better than most around. Most people alot of times don’t have someone to train with and practice the skills learned on these courses. Also there is a big difference between diving on OC and on a rebreather. We have to worry about air consumption. By fining correctly and been in a decent trim we can extend or bottom time (sorry now I dont mean to say that as if you didnt know of course you do Im just pointing out that this sort of stuff that aren’t on a course does have more relevance on OC) and only good and experience tech diver will be able to help you with that. It doesn’t have to be an instructor but why not learn these skills properly from the start and not allow for bad habits.

There's a couple of things here. Nobody taught me how to do a frog kick or helicopter turn. I taught myself. There's lots of other things that I was never taught and had to fill in the gaps myself. There's a huge amount of info on the interweb, articles, forums, videos etc. If someone has crap finning technique, buoyancy, trim etc. then I find it  a bit of a stretch to make the excuse "but nobody taught me....". Really it says more about the diver (lack of ambition) than the instructor.

I have long enough chats with Matthieu on certain topics. Sometimes he feels that a particular issue is not addressed. So we try and break it down and lo and behold when we list out the top 10 priorities we find the topic in question does not appear on the list. That doesn't mean its not important rather there are 10 other things to get sorted first before we worry about no.11

I was up in Scapa last week with a mix bunch of club divers and friends, OC and CCR, very experienced and relatively new to 30-40m diving and I would hazard a guess that no-one was formally taught how to do frog kicks, how to trim, how to have fine buoyancy control between suit and wing and yet they all for the most part were decent. I'm not an instructor but I've been asked for advice on many occasions and that advice has been ignored (usually about ankle weights  ) and thats grand - the important thing was to ask the question and make up your own mind. No brain dead divers here please.

You mention that I'm surrounded by very experienced divers. Thats true as of the last 3 years but I tell you what - they are not teaching me how to fin. What about prior to 3 years ago? Sure I had mates and I had my club and that was grand. I didn't just do my OW and end up on the Rosguill with rogues like Andrews, McGill, Couglan and the rest overnight. You'd have to be in the Newry club for that  Na I spent years with Laura, Andy, Eoin O'B, Stephen McE, Alan and Fintan and a truck load of clubbie colleagues scaring the shite out of ourselves and each other and learning along the way and sure its still going on....

Training courses are great especially if you have a decent instructor but unfortunately it was never going to be on the cards for Richie Stevenson to become my buddy afterwards. I did my MOD2 in 2008 and I must say it was a miserable year for diving after the course. Unfortunately Richie had not improved my life, started up a fleet of charter boats around Ireland, found me a good source of helium and dive buddies etc. He did wind me up and point me and thats all I needed. Sure he also mentioned that my buoyancy and trim were shite but what the hell was he supposed to do about it. There comes a time where the best advice is "just sort it out". We've got bigger fish to fry.

The whole thing about gas consumption on a badly trimmed/finning OC diver and not being an issue on CCR is bogus. Sure elevated exertion due to poor trim profile/finning produces CO2 and we don't likes that in a rebreather especially at 100m. Sure them scooters are there for a reason.

All in all a good diver will succeed despite the obstacles and I don't see any reason why the onus should be on the instructor to teach every diver including the bad ones absolutely everything. No.1 requirement on my list is attitude and that can't be taught. You have to want it.....badly. Do you want to be the best diver you can possibly be? Yes? Grand - go read a book, talk to other divers, watch videos, take a look at how you dive and see what can be improved, do more diving....

[baza]

Hey lads,

I can see a lot of truth in what both Cathal and Stephen are both saying. The various teaching agencies don’t expect their instructors to have a massive experience level to teach Advanced Nitrox courses etc. It just calls for you to be an Open Water Instructor (Basically able to teach diving) and then to have passed a tec course you want to teach and to have done a very limited amount of diving after course. I don’t see this as bad thing, as all tec instructors need to start somewhere… For me, as the course level increases, the required expereince level to teach it should also increase. For me, I gained my core knowledge / skills from my instructors though set courses. But I also learnt massive amounts about the practical side of diving from my buddies. The buddies changed over the years, but I always had people around me at each stage that I could learn from even if they were at the same stage as myself.

Likewise, just because someone is doing loads of very deep diving, they aren’t automatically going to make the ideal tech Instructor... For me, it’s a very slow process working up enough diving experience and teaching experience over the last year years and not getting too involved in teaching courses too quickly.  I find going out going deeper diving gives you a great experience base to build on as you progress to be a tec instructor, but it doesn't entitle you to be able to teach all levels. A good technical instructor will supplement their real world experience, with hands on teaching skills and a keen eye for improving each individual students weaknesses while ensuring the core competencies are understood and reinforced.

Your point with regard to certain skills / topics not being covered in enough depth is very valid. For me, I have certain skills / topics that are central to safe diving practices and try and drive these home to every student I have. Some are from the course guidelines and other are skills / topics that I feel are critical to furthering the knowledge and experience of my students. Sadly, I only get 3 to 5 days on any course and it is very hard to cover everything a diver will need to learn for the rest of their diving career. For me, each student has to look at it as lifelong learning to improve their diving skills, knowledge and methods. All I try and do for each course I teach is to give the students the core skills that are required to dive safely and to give them the confidence to head out and undertake the dives they want to achieve. Saying that, they have to be able to see their own short comings and be willing to put in the ground work to improve their skills and knowledge.  Likely this, the group I do most of my diving with, we try to improve our diving safety systems each year. Each winter we look at our diving practices, drop gas / deco procedures and back up / rescue systems. This stuff doesn’t happen overnight and it takes many years and long conversations and lots of practices to find what works and to find better ways of doing things. Its also a never ending process. It also can’t be just done by one person. It takes a group working together to make things better.

Finding a good instructor is key to getting off to a good start. The next is getting a good group of divers around you with a common goal and developing as a group. Without these two, you are going to always have a battle on your hand. Also, its good to have buddies who will point out your short comings.... I find its the 'short assed' or 'older wiser guru' types that are good at this Not naming names or anything...

[Andy]

Lots of good points being made by various people on this thread.

I'm very much with Stephen on a few points- I spent years learning stuff myself  and scaring myself stupid along with some good friends.  There were a few moments of "right that didn't work, now how the hell do I get myself out of here".

And like Stephen and others before him, I'm very lucky to be diving with a great set of divers these days (at both shallow and deep depths) and am still learning from them. 

These are skills that I try and impart to any students unlucky enough to be on a course that I'm teaching.  However, with regard to teaching everying right down to finning techniques, it just can't be done.  Of course, if I spot something, I'll point it out with a suggestion on improving but when I'm teaching a course I have the following list of priorities

• The Must-Teach Skills - these are the ones that will potentially kill you if you don't know
• The It-Would-Be-Very-Useful Skills - There are (as the name suggests) very useful for students to be taught
  
• The If-I-Have-Time Skills - These skills aren't going to get someone hurt but will hopefully make a student a better diver or at least get them thinking about the little things.

Of course, the teaching doesn't always stop after the course.  I was on the same trip last week to Scapa as Stephen and (to my eternal shame) was responsible for teaching a number of the divers up there the BSAC Accelerated Decompression Procedures Course.  Of course, I think they are stuck with me as I'm the only instructor in Dublin for this course.  During the week, I was watching my former students and was actually quite impressed on some of the procedures and discussions on gas mixes, run-times, etc that I was observing.  Of course, I did spot a couple of silt-kickers which I pointed out in a generous fashion - usually started with the "Right, which one of you bastards has yellow fins and kicked up all the crap in front of me?"  however, on the whole, i was quite happy with the general cop-on and techniques showed by them.

However (and to get back to the point), they were all learning off each other during the week also.  I gave them skills that I have learnt from the likes of Stephen, Alan, Pat, Baza, Stewie, Rez, etc, etc (the list is too long to write) and then let them loose (while swimming away as fast as possible in the other direction).  My advice is to get a group of divers together whom all want to do the same stuff and learn from each other. 

Andy