What to do ref rebreather

[Tom Brett]

Ok Guys
I have been pondering over this for a long time and have had many a chat over the previous months with Artur, I am going to bite the bullet and go for a rebreather.
But this is where I thought the problem would end - to buy or not to buy, where now it seems that I have just left the starting gate and now the bigger problem is which one

I have been looking at the classic - cheap and cheerful, have been wisely told I think to look more at a vision and I have in my head a meg (as I like the modular approach - but not its expense)

This brings me to the bigger Q - which ones would you recommend, obviously this is based on use and easy service + training so any ideas
I have also looked at a copis meg mccr - with the view to upgrade it using new electronics to a eccr - am I mad?


Use wise - I am mainly looking at the 40 - 50m range but with camera - to be honest I am sick of headaches due to skip breathing whilst taking shots, I would also like to go trimix and feel that if I am going to go down that route - I may aswell start it via rebreather after I build up the hours

other than that - any nice rebreathers floating around??

Thanks for taking the time

Tom

[Stephen McMullan]

Hi Tom,

I've only ever dived an Inspiration Vision CCR since 2007 so can't really comment on anything else.

My primary use for the CCR is deep and very deep shipwreck diving. Top of my priority list is reliability in "no messing" situations and bottom of the priority list is "looking cool/perfect swimming pool trim".

Pros:

* very reliable, only missed 1 dive in 4+ years due to a cell failing to calibrate as I was setting up and I had chosen not to bring my spares that particular day!
* capable of diving to whatever depths you're interested in
* lots of users in Ireland to ask advice/help off
* lots of instructors available
* easy to spot and resolve problems
* easy to maintain and buy spares
* easy to self service if you're into that sort of thing
* close to factory in UK for support and service
* APD factory support is very very good although they're getting a bit of a roasting over customer communications re the cells at present
* superb electronics and handset menu system
* very tolerant of water ingress into the loop
* tempstick is very useful

Cons:
* Buoyancy / trim wise can handle like a pig but you get used to it
* shortage of 02 cells at the minute is a bit of a pain in the nads
* harness is a bit so-so, have to go rooting for D-rings
* OCB/BOV is bloody pricey add-on
* HUD can obscure handset view
* cluttered chest with the OTS counterlungs
* Buddy Autoair is a piece of shite
* Casing cracks at bottom
* although flood tolerant, theres no reliable safe way of clearing a majorly flooded loop

Having said all that I essentially dive an unmodified unit and just fitted a Scubapro standard inflator after I had broken (thank god) the Autoair trying to service it. I fitted a KT stainless baseplate to deal with the cracking case and a KT stainless handle to make it easier for lifting.

But in summary I really love the unit and wouldn't hesitate to buy again for the type of diving I do.

S

[Eoin OBeara]

Stephen, did the standard auto air feed hose work, or did you have to buy another one?
I got a buddy inflator but the hose doesn't fit on the manifold (of course...)

(sorry to hijack the thread)

[Scubadec / Dec Hanniffy]

Hi Stephen, as you know I dont have a RB, but I have done a RB Try a dive on the rEVO.
Is water ingress a big problem? Iv seen it written on forums that the rEvO is very bad when it comes to sorting out any water ingress.
I presume its only through the mouth piece and cracks/ damaged areas that water gets in? Surely if the Unit is damaged you would be bailing out anyways?
What im trying to understand is, Is water ingress really a big problem? I can understand water in the lungs being a problem, but Is the water getting into the lungs something that happens alot?

Sorry for my rambling question,
Dec

[Andy]

I would pretty much agree with everything Stephen said.

I'm diving the Inspiration Vision since 2007 and I would think hard about getting a different one. 

AutoAir is crap and mine came off pretty damm quick.  Standard AP inflate now (Eoin, hose connection needed changing).

Other than that, my unit is essentially the factory delivered model.

Andy

[Tom Brett]

Ok Thanks lads - hopefully I will get other feedback also, looks like I am not the only one thinking...

Also the other thing I need is instructors for Mod 1
Has anyone dived the meg, it did seem like a nicer unit - what is it like to dive with

Thanks

Tom

[Stephen McMullan]

Stephen, did the standard auto air feed hose work, or did you have to buy another one?
I got a buddy inflator but the hose doesn't fit on the manifold (of course...)

(sorry to hijack the thread)

Hi Eoin - good to hear from you buddy. Gis a shout when you want to go diving! Yeah the standard autoair feed is compatible with the APD GCS (Gas Connect System) fitting but nothing else. I was happy enough to replace it with the Scubapro inflator with a standard fitting. If I lost my dil reg/cyl I could swap in pretty much anything else to inflate the wing. I like that sort of redundancy (although I now have GCS connectors on my bailouts for the OCB).

Hi Stephen, as you know I dont have a RB, but I have done a RB Try a dive on the rEVO.
Is water ingress a big problem? Iv seen it written on forums that the rEvO is very bad when it comes to sorting out any water ingress.
I presume its only through the mouth piece and cracks/ damaged areas that water gets in? Surely if the Unit is damaged you would be bailing out anyways?
What im trying to understand is, Is water ingress really a big problem? I can understand water in the lungs being a problem, but Is the water getting into the lungs something that happens alot?

Sorry for my rambling question,
Dec

Dec, its ultimately down to a user screw up.

* Lack of maintenance: Perhaps the loop was compromised by an perished o-ring thats failing to seal so the unit needs a bit more TLC. Unlikely to flood the loop, more like a trickle.

* Bad Assembly: I know a couple of guys who didn't screw on the manual inflate buttons properly and ended up with a right load of water in the bottom of the lung but the units still were able to dive (at least pointing in the direction of home!  ). These should have been spotted during the positive and negative tests but weren't. I did same down in Portroe last Sunday but spotted the problem in the car park because the positive wasn't holding.

Also falling into the above category was a Meg diver I know who had to bail off because the loop detached from the scrubber can because they hadn't screwed it on properly. That was on the ascent after a dive to 135m  You might hear a bit more about it in Trinity in mid Nov 

* Brain Donor: Or the classic McMullan scenario of practicising bailout drills in Portroe last Spring, bailing onto the OCB (loop closed) and then switching onto open circuit second stage but not before doing the instinctive move of "closing" the already closed loop (i.e. opening it). A minute or so later wondering why bubbles were coming from my loop mouthpiece - duh! Counterlung was quarter full of water but unit was breathable and I headed for home. There was about a half centimeter of fresh water in the bottom of the can as well - nothing to worry about.

* Operational Error: The other one was a mate had his mouthpiece half open/half closed and water was seeping into the loop. Always check that the mouthpiece is at the extreme end of its range of movement. Not a total flood but a lot of water was pooled in the mouthpiece chamber and gave the impression that it was.

Closed circuit means closed!

Sure you can bailout as a precaution in relative comfort as long as you're not too deep. The bogeyman situation for CCR divers is irretrievably losing the loop at extreme depth. In that context (i.e. very deep) there are only two reasons/irretrievable situations to come off the loop - total flood and carbon dioxide poisoning. But at reasonable depths why take a chance with a less severe problem (e.g. problem with cells, solenoid failure) if you've got the gas. Just get out of there. Story changes as you get deeper and bailing out becomes a much more dangerous proposition because of limited gas supplies. You really don't want to contemplate having to bail off at 100m+ hence the focus on having units with long life scrubbers and flood resistance/flood recovery at EXTREME depths. Prevention is way way way better than cure in this case. If you've diving 60m and have a problem, even a recoverable one then grand, bail off and head home. Very deep and it may not be so simple. Dealing with the problems (other than the two show stoppers) is preferrable to bailing out.

Other than that, my unit is essentially the factory delivered model.

Andy

The unit is fine but the owner above is definitely not CE approved 

Also the other thing I need is instructors for Mod 1

Stephen McElhone  for Inspiration Classic, Evolution, Vision and Sentinel

[Scubadec / Dec Hanniffy]

Thanks Stephen.

[denismc]

Hi Tom,
I have the Meg so here is my 2p. It is very reliable, simple to use, it is very flood tolerant , the most water i have ever had in the loop is less than a cupful.
It is modular but all the extra bits you may  want to add are pricey.
There is a service centre in the U.K so servicing isn't a problem.
It doesn't have build in deco software but you can hardwire in a Shearwater at extra cost or use a stand alone computer.
It has the counterlungs on the front like the inspo, I don't find this a problem but it may be a factor if you like a chest free area.
If i was back again i would look at the Copis, its a bit cheaper and is good to 80m without modification.
As for rebreathers and photography, o.k you will be a little quieter but the fishes can still see you
My best advice would be to talk to some instructors who have used many units, Rich Stevenson has used most units out there so it may be worth talking to him.
Also pop over to the dive show in Birmingham where there will be lots of manufacturers and instructors and you may be able to try a few units in the pool although i think the trydives are run by BSAC

[Cathal_M]

Stephen - what compromises CE approval from AP?  I mean if you stick on a Golem gear BOV - id imagine that would.  But what if you swapped the wing or Harness?  Or put on a KT frame?

[Stephen McMullan]

I hate that question  Professional divers have to use CE approved kit for work. That includes instructors, commercial types, documentary film crew etc. The other concern is that an insurance company may wriggle out of paying life assurance/mortgage protection to your poor spouse should you shuffle on to the next life and you're using mutant equipment. I'm not pro and I have none of those fancy expensive policies for my next of kin, no mortgage, no dependents so I feel free to do what I like. I'm probably not the best person to ask as I don't pay much heed to it.

[pat coughlan]

HI Tom,

What unit you buy and dive is ultimately up to you, everyone has their own pet unit it is worth doing a search on Rebreatherworld which will answer a lot of your questions the hard part will be wading through the "my unit is better than your unit" dick measuring that goes on.

Considerations to think about before buying a unit
How much dosh have you got? That narrows it down alot
Does the unit have a HUD? Needed if you are using a camera (in my opinion) so you are not so reliant on handsets
Do you want back mounted (no chest clutter) counter lungs or over the shoulder?
What is the service and parts availability this side of the pond?
what is the full loaded weight of the unit?
What is the scrubber duration? Is there available data on WOB
What depths do you plan on doing?
Do it have or do you want a BOV on it?
What is its flood recovery like?
Do you want to be able to travel with the unit?
Is training available here what instructors are available - how good are they?

 Im sure that the list can be added to by more suitably qualified people that me, Stephen McElhone has a vision and an Sentinel so you could get to dive both lung configurations and he could run you through the pros an cons of both and would be a very worthwhile exercise.

Oh and while I am on it any unit other than a Sentinel is crap  

On CE my understanding is if you modify the unit in any way other that with a factory approved piece of kit your unit is not CE, I could be wrong I have been know to talk shite like Mc Gill!

Cheers Pat

[Andy]

Mr McMullan,

before you go making comments like that, do you know where your deep bailout is  ?

[Andy]

Also, meant to say, when I was considering which unit to buy, I went over to Birmingham and asked lots of questions about each one I could.  Some suppliers were great and open.  others kept telling me that "that information can't be released".

There are a lot of unit types out there now that weren't available when I bought mine so if I was buying again, I would be at the dive show again!

Andy

[Tom Brett]

Thanks guys

You are being very helpful

So what instructors do we have over here and what units arer there

In relation to the meg - I keep hearing the term bullet proof ref their durability which to be honest I like
I have seen one of those copis mccr models - I would have thought that they were a no go

What do yee think of the classic from AP?
Thanks again

Tom