Author Topic: Answers please..........  (Read 1840 times)

Offline Scubadec / Dec Hanniffy

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Answers please..........
« on: January 24, 2012, 10:47:26 PM »
Right lads, Im currently doing a bit of Study for the CFT Mon 1 exam  :flame:
A question in the notes, with the CFT answer beside it has caused some discussion via facebook........

What are your thoughts on it....
Ill stick up the "CFT answer" in the morning.

How much air is available to a diver at 30m depth with a 12.2 litre cylinder with Cylinder pressure of 232 bar?

Knock yourselves out.....
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 10:50:06 PM by Scubadec / Dec Hanniffy »
Safe Diving,

Dec

Offline Chris Byrne

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 10:50:22 PM »
Ah Dec dont give them the answer that easily  :)

Online Ken Hawk

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 10:50:40 PM »
2,830.4lts div by 4 bar 707.5
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 11:03:07 PM by Ken Hawk »

Offline markb

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 11:34:40 PM »
well dec, the ambient pressure at 30m is 4bar so you would subtract 4 from 232 as that four bar can never be taken from the tank,then do the usual equation!!!even when the bottle is empty on the surface there is always 1bar left in it,or so i was told  :stupid:

Online Ken Hawk

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 11:38:57 PM »
well dec, the ambient pressure at 30m is 4bar so you would subtract 4 from 232 as that four bar can never be taken from the tank,then do the usual equation!!!even when the bottle is empty on the surface there is always 1bar left in it,or so i was told  :stupid:

Thats got to be bollocks surely.
I now know what the CFT manual says, but it's just wrong.

Offline Scubadec / Dec Hanniffy

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 11:48:52 PM »
well dec, the ambient pressure at 30m is 4bar so you would subtract 4 from 232 as that four bar can never be taken from the tank,then do the usual equation!!!even when the bottle is empty on the surface there is always 1bar left in it,or so i was told  :stupid:
So what number are you saying Mark?
Safe Diving,

Dec

Offline markb

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 12:03:45 AM »
12.2by228=2781.6 ans/4=695.4 litres of air available @30m  "im more than likely wrong"    ;)

Offline markb

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 12:29:18 AM »
Ken thats what cft says,and they know best    :sarcasm:

Offline emmbee

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2012, 12:48:38 AM »
The question as stated is moronic.

First off, it's idiotic to give 3 digits of precision for cylinder volume and pressure, and not give 3 digits of precision for air pressure on the surface (not gonna be 1.00 bar) and water density (not gonna be 1.00 kg/L). That's a science 101 fail. Especially if you're then going to nitpick for 4 bar which is the same order of error as said water density.

Second, anyway, if you hope to get more than 2 digits of precision, you'd better start by ditching the ideal gas laws and taking into account the non-linearity of gas laws. See section 4 "Cubic equations of state" and following. Of course at this point, you need temperature, too.

Third, you can get all the gas. Just remove the first stage, fill the cylinder with water. Not realistic? Then first you need to subtract the 10-ish bar until your first stage stops delivering (could be 8, could be 12, Poseidons are 15, I seem to remember, please correct?).

Then, finally, at this point you can subtract 4 bar.

Me? I'd go 210*12/4=630. That's 210 as in 230 minus 20, 30 if the water's cold. Easy enough that I can do it on the boat. Good enough for diving. Probably more accurate than the official "correct" answer. Accommodates a bit of temperature related pressure drop. And safer to boot.

And if someone disagrees, he'd better be good at solving 3rd order polynomials on the spot...

But then again I'm not taking Mon1.

If your answers is the "correct" one, mark, I'm really confused. It's neither good physics nor good diving.

Cheers,

Matthieu
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 12:50:38 AM by emmbee »

Offline baza

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Answers please..........
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2012, 12:56:08 AM »
Also need to account for the interstage pressure on the 1st stage which is normally around 10 bar. So that's 14 bar or so at 30m

2,659.6 litres for free air volume @30m
Barry McGill
Indepth Technical Diving
CCR, Trimix, Technical, Nitrox Training
http://indepthtechnical.com/


Offline emmbee

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2012, 02:41:45 AM »
Figures, figures...

Assuming atmospheric pressure of 1 atm, 1.013 bar and water density of 1.025 kg/L (average seawater), so pressure at 30m about 4.088 bar, water temperature 16C (and likewise for the cylinder and its content, assumed to be air).

I get 117 mol in the cylinder. We have a minimum 10+4.088 bar, which is 7.2 mol (just how accurate is that 10 bar, anyway?). So we have 109.8 mol available.

On the surface, at 1013 mbar, that's 2604L. At 30m, that's 643.6L.

Assuming the equation of state is valid in the range considered, and the coefs I found are good, of course ;)

I'm happy with my 630.

Cheers,

Matthieu

Offline markb

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2012, 07:51:58 AM »
emmbee,like i said im more than likely wrong,not the best at maths,but im nearly sure thats the way i was shown how to do it for mon1 level!

Offline Sidemount Ninja

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2012, 07:58:25 AM »
Its a trick question. Nothing to do with maths whatsoever.



Answer- shouldn't be at 30m on a single cylinder  ;D



Edited  Just for emmbee, shouldn't be at 30.00m on a 12.20 litre filled to 232.00bar..... :P
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 08:01:49 AM by Aaron Wootton »

Offline Paul Devane

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Answers please..........
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2012, 08:45:17 AM »
Emmbee.. What exactly do you do?? Physics teacher? Scientist?
"Fear is the father of courage and the mother of safety"

Online Ken Hawk

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Re: Answers please..........
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2012, 09:02:16 AM »