Neoprene v laminate suits? weighting, warmth and deep diving issues.

[Sidemount Ninja Tx]

On my recent Tx course in Malta I was diving my 5mm custom O3 Neoprene. Now I love this suit. Great fit, had awesome service from O3, wear the OTB rock boots and F1fins so trim is great with no ankle weights anymore...  Diving twin faber 12's plus stages (7l or 10l ali's) in Ireland I normally need 10kg of lead to be certain of staying down for my last stop. In Malta for the first time I dived Ali 80's as primary sidemounts. This meant I needed another 4Kg of lead to hold last stop. Even that was a bit dodgy as blowing tanks down to 30bar for a check, I really could have taken another Kg.

In NZ I got to dive a whites fusion suit. Its a laminate style bag with none waterproof Lycra and neoprene outer to keep bag snug to body. Great suit, feels like diving a wetsuit, was toasty warm with Fze xerotherms in 14degrees and with twin 12's only needed 4Kg of lead.

What I really noticed on the Tx course, more so than on my other tec purses to date was that at depth 30m plus, as my O3 compressed I was pretty heavily overweighted with the 14Kg. Didn't really like the fullness of my wing and Drysuit just for buoyancy. Clearly not had same issue on deep dives in a wetsuit (warm water  !

There are some issues personal to me. I'm a big guy so my O3 has a lot of neoprene in it. I float like a cork anyway. Etc etc....

Anyway Paul Toomers view was that the compression issues of neoprene suits and what I was experiencing validates his opinion that tri-lam style suits are the best option for deep diving. He reckons that modern undersuits perform well enough even when wet that the thermal insulation is not in itself enough to justify the need for neoprene. I've read as much on Drysuits on the forum as I can find and that seems to be the opposite view to that stated in previous posts.

So, do I go for a new tri-lam? The whites is a great suit and I loved diving it. I can fit in an off the peg. I really like losing all the lead, don't like the cash layout!

Did the Ali sidemounts mess up my view on this?

There's a big gap between 4Kg for the whites, 10 Kg for steels in my O3 and 14Kg or what should have been 15Kg with ali's that I can explain to an extent with changes in cylinder weights, though not why with the ali's why I seemed to experience greater suit compression issues with the ali's?

Maybe I'm  here, apologies if so, but interested in thoughts from the forum.

[Sidemount Ninja]

Interesting points dude, several questions, don't have all the answers and a lot of it would be personal choice anyway.

Firstly - weights. Emmbeeeeee will no doubt chip in here with the upthrust v downforce v real v blah blah theory so I'll leave the math to him (sorry Matthieu, you da man  ). You will always need the weight to keep you, suit, tanks with ~ 30 bar at 6m, the gas in the tanks will have you overweighted to start, slightly neg/neutral to finish (worst case). More tanks with you = more overweighted to start the dive. Suit and tank choice will influence how much weight and where it is distributed (% on you and % as weight of the tanks)

I know you know this stuff, thought I'd 101 for some of the YBOD dippers that have forgotten the basics....

I have a similar hike in weight when using Al80's (sidemounted with no steels), about 10kg to keep me down over 4kg with 2x12 steels. I don't have any issues with suit compression at depth and I'm using a 2mm crushed neoprene DUI. I thought O3's were supposed to be similar so am a little surprised to hear about the issues at depth.  Can't see how cylinder choice would make any difference to the suit compression other than the actual "feeling" of being overweighted due to the extra on the belt.

Personally, I don't like trilam, compression not an issue but feels like diving in a wrinkly bag (no wisecracks please). The Whites Fusion looks good but I have a few concerns about durability of the outer covering. Can't say much else but the less weight to keep you down (minus the tanks) has to be a good thing. Trilams are generally lighter and dry faster as well, not that the neoprene bothers me too much.

Don't want to contradict PVT but in very cold water I don't think the undersuit will provide adequate thermal protection. Not that there is an easy out in a flooded suit in 4 degrees - bend or freeze? Hmmm, nasty. Maybe some are better than others but I've never had more than a suit flood up to my armpits and that was no picnic. I've heard heated undersuits can provide some comfort when wet but have no experience of this.

I'd stick with the tried and tested drysuit/steels in cold water or wetsuit/aluminiums in warm water. You'll have drysuit/steels for long dives/deco in warm water anyway 

[Sidemount Ninja Tx]

Cheers Aaron - Not being the Maths guy I'm wondering if it's a non linear relationship with the compression issues - therefore The extra Kg's needed by the ali's have an exponential effect, exacerbated by the change in buoyancy characteristics over steels. Given my size there's a lot of neoprene. I'd rather dive steels with a Drysuit but it wasn't an option this time.

Re warmth whites have an interesting video on their site showing wet thermal testing of their undersuits.

[Peter McCamley]

This is only a personal thing.
I dived in Northern Diver neoprene suits for years and since I had never dived in anything else only neoprene, I was none the wiser. “What you never had you never miss”.......

Then I bought a crushed neoprene DUI suit, which had similarities of a trilaminate. Immediately I threw off a load of lead. I had always heard that lead was a killer when diving and I was glad to get rid of at least a tonne.  From Day 1 the DUI leaked like a sieve. I later learned that the material was porus. Not ideal for a diving suit. 

18 months later I met Chris Hammand (http://www.hammond-drysuits.co.uk/) and his dad Brian and moved into one of their Trilaminates. (Best service and reliability that I have ever experienced from a family business) The result was amazing.

The movement and ease of getting into and diving in their suit was amazing....and best of all, I got rid of most of the lead.

Some time later I went CCRB and got rid of all the lead. It stands to reason that with Neoprene there's going to be air in the material, which upon acending from a dive theres going to be additional buoyancy issues to be looked at. Likewise due to the composition of the material you will need additional weight in order to decend.....like I said "I hate lead"

I found the only real advantage to the neoprene suit was the thermal insulation. At that stage I went off and found a Robin Hood Thinsulate suit for the summer diving and a set of light Exotherme under the Robin Hood for the winter.

The real test of this was 4 degrees in Donegal in Jan for an hour at a time and it works well for me.

Like most things in life, I would listen to all and then try it out and see. It might not be for everybody but it suits me!

PS One thing that I found to be great recently was “gators”
http://www.divelife.co.uk/scuba-manufacturers/Halcyon/1021/Halcyon-Gators...

Yes an idea from PVT, great to get all the air out of the legs and so easy now to get the feet up!

[Sidemount Ninja Tx]

Cheers Peter, have to admit I'm very sold on dumping a pile of lead!

[Peter McCamley]

Meant to say.....we get 20% off the retail price off all suits. Give me a shout if you are interested:

[Stephen McMullan]

Something has to give Matt. Alis float as does neoprene. Remove steel and add lead?

I dive with a 5mm full blown neo and its very warm, flexible and comfortable. It compresses at depth. It actually stops compressing at depth when it effectively becomes as thick as a trilam membrane. I add gas to my wing to compensate. Suit and loop are at minimum volumn.

I can hang my shallow stops. It would be a terminal situation if I couldn't. I use the increased buoyancy of the suit to my advantage in the shallows. It gives a lot of support the length of my body for the long hangs and especially supporting the legs. This can be important when deco lasts for many hours.

The warmt of a full blown neo is also important for the same situation.

I don't know Toomer and what diving he's done but some of our lads have had suit floods in 130m and 4+ hours of deco to complete and its worked out ok.

He is right that the change of suit buoyancy is something to be managed and can be problematic if not taken into account.

Rich Stevenson also exclusively dives membranes and the DIR guys don't like neo either.

But as I mentioned I've made it work for me rather than against me.

However I would not exclusively use ali80s. The change inn buoyancy is huge. We carry alis as bailouts but should we bailout its pretty much on the basis that we're ditching them or clipping them off to the shot when we're done.

You can't have everything. Lightweight rigs = more lead.

[Stephen McMullan]

Ps gaiters usually indicate a badly fitting suit due to gas pooling in the legs. This can be managed by good posture and minimum gas volumn in the suit but is very difficult if the legs are shaped like flares.

[Stephen McMullan]

Last thought.

I think it was Fintan who asked me one time: are you diving the gear or is the gear diving you?

Spot on!

Whatever works works. There was a lad on the boat at the weekend diving old school with a backplate and ABLJ - no wing or BCD. No problems....

[Sidemount Ninja Tx]

Thanks for input Steve, def don't like using ali's as mains and understand those issues. Might be in touch with you Peter, thanks for offer, appreciated.

[Sidemount Ninja Tx]

Re Fintans question, it's as synergy surely, the better the synergy the better the dive and easier it is for the diver to execute skills. My feeling is if I can dump 8-10Kg of lead my skill execution becomes easier. As I say I love the O3 suit but hate the extra weight needed.

[Stephen McMullan]

Actually I think Fintan mentioned something about his rebreather trying to "ride" him on a dive or maybe it was me and my unit on a dive.

Anyways I don't believe in perfection. I just get on with what I've got. I don't have time or money to find the perfect rig. Its a "good enough" philosophy. Not missing dives or spending $$$$ over it. Not that important to me. Each to their own.

[Andy_HFC]

It really is down to personal preference.

Each type of suit can be 'managed' to be used in all forms of diving. Neo suits are warmer, also in a flood, than a trilam, but if you're in a Santi 400 undersuit you'll be plenty protected.

There are plenty of expedition divers who wear each, so i don't really think there's a "best suit" anyway.

I would get a suit i was most comfortable in if i was you. I agree the fusion thing looks a bit flimsy, but i've never actually read anywhere about it falling apart? I've spoken to the Apeks guys and they've shown me around the suit in person, and they maintain it's durability of the bullet skin (i think it was the bullet). If you want a tight fit - it's definitely the way forward. I considered it, but i wasn't totally sold on the pockets and the entry thingy.

I have dived a neo suit, but not to great depths so i never noticed the compression; but it was a lot more buoyant than the trilam i have now. My weight belt has 4lbs on it in : bliss!

I would strongly recommend MTM, it's extra investment, but well worth it.

hth

[Sidemount Ninja]

Steve, just out of curiosity, have you noticed the 5mm suit suffering from the effects of deep dives?  I have seen several pairs of gloves staying permanently compressed after 90m dives (not my dives)

[Stephen McMullan]

Yep its slowly turning into a 2mm compressed neo which is what I wanted in the first place but Uncle Stewie wouldn't let me buy one.

Stewies suit is remarkable. You wouldn't think it was the same suit as mine. He's subjected his to a LOT of 10bar+ of pressure, much more than me.